WZLY Interviews: GAYLE
image courtesy of Luke Rogers
by Molly McCaul ‘23
content warning for strong language and brief mentions of body image/fatphobia
GAYLE, at just 17, has quickly become something of a superstar. Her latest single, “abcdefu,” is her first under Atlantic Records, and has already created quite a buzz, going viral on TikTok and accruing over 39 million streams. All of this success has brought GAYLE into the forefront, landing her a spot on Billboard’s “21 Under 21” list.
For the first time ever, she’s on tour, opening for Winnetka Bowling League, including a date this Monday, November 29, at Brighton Music Hall. This past weekend, GAYLE took the time out of her busy schedule to sit down for an interview with WZLY. Read on to hear her insights on Aretha Franklin, Great Salt Lake, and what it means to be a woman in music today.
WZLY: We’re super excited to get to talk with you! Especially because you’re on tour with Winnetka Bowling League, right?
GAYLE: I am! Yes, I go back on Sunday.
So you have a show coming up in Boston on Monday, right? […] How has tour been? Is this, like, your first time on the road, supporting your music?
This is my first time, like, on tour ever. I was 15 when 2020 happened. And so I was like, just starting to kind of get to the age of being able to tour a lot, because not everybody wants to 12 year old on their tour. [laughs] And even just kind of like solidifying my music, my genre and what I really wanted to like, perform to people consistently, you know?
The tour has been amazing. It is a wild ride. […] It was one of those things where it's kind of scary, right, like a couple days before, just because I've never been on tour. So I never knew how to like, imagine it. And if I couldn't imagine it or see it happening, I just couldn't imagine it happening. Like I literally did not think I was gonna go on tour until the day I got on that plane. And even then, it was really until the second show. We went to the first one, drove to the second, because it started in Colorado and then we went to Utah. And even just that experience of like, traveling somewhere, performing, driving to the next place, [and] performing, I was like, “oh shit! this is tour!” So it's been so much fun. And it's been really nice to actually be able to perform and see people and all that.
Yeah, definitely. And as a music fan it’s definitely nice to be able to go back out and see tours and stuff again. How has that experience been—just kind of traveling the country? Is it new and exciting to see all these new places? Or is it just something you're used to?
The only places I've really ever been are Texas, California and Tennessee, and then I've been in New York but that's really it. So a lot of these places on the tour I've never been before. So it's actually been amazing. Even knowing, like, how far away everything is from each other and how long of a drive it is.
Even just little things. Like I went to Salt Lake City, Utah, and I didn't know that Salt Lake had a salty lake. That was like new, that was news to me. I was like, “oh yeah, the salty lake like haha, that's so funny.” They're like, “No, there's a lake with a shit ton of salt.” I was like “huh? Wait, wait a minute.”
And then there's a couple places we went to in between, like, we went to Idaho. For some reason, I fucked with Idaho. I was there for like 12 hours, and I was like “hell yeah!” I went to Seattle. That place is amazing. It was so cold. I was not prepared, because like [tour] started in Colorado, Salt Lake. It was kind of in like, colder places, but then we went to LA. In my head, I kind of like, packed for LA and then packed, like, a coat. And I was freezing. Now I know better, and I'm gonna be packing lots of jackets!
But it's been amazing to like, get to see places I've never been to before, especially for the thing I love most in this world. Like, it's just been such an amazing experience that I'm so grateful to be able to have.
Yeah, absolutely. That's great. I love that. So if you could just kind of walk us through your career. I know you started writing music when you were really young, [and] you started doing these writer sessions at like 11 or 12 years old. What has it been like to kind of blow up and see your career grow, especially through quarantine and the weirdness of 2020?
It's crazy, you know? Obviously, I never would have wanted 2020 to happen—the pandemic, like, obviously, there's so many downsides and so many loved ones lost that shouldn't have had to happen… it's just really unfortunate circumstances. But I also feel like, I feel the need to pull some positive things out of this experience. There have really been some good things that have happened. Like in quarantine, I really had time to sit and think about the music I'm making and the things that I'm saying and [been] able to get things ready for my live show.
And then even with music, I've been doing this, really, since I was seven. I heard Aretha Franklin for the first time and literally when I saw her on... I saw her on YouTube. […] It was basically just her singing all of her songs. I remember in that moment, like I literally just decided "that's what I want to do for the rest of my life. I want to be Aretha Franklin.” And I just kind of stuck to it, you know? Obviously, my music isn't necessarily like, Aretha Franklin 2.0, for sure. I've kind of been taking other inspirations from things. Just like growing up and other music […]. But, you know, I've been doing this for so long, I don't remember really a time where I haven't.
[…] I didn't put out music for a year, just to really make sure that this is, like, the best thing that I could be doing. […] When you're putting out music, you don't know if it's good, you know, like you like it because you wrote it and you never hear a song you wrote for the first time. That's the thing that always like fucks with me, when I'm thinking about it, I was like, “I can't hear this for the first time.” So I have to like, show my friends. Obviously, the people I wrote the song with, they liked it, most of the time. And then I just have to really like put it out and cross my fingers and hope that people like it. Especially like with “abc” [“abcdefu”], I was like, “people are either gonna like it or think it's stupid. I have no clue of telling which way that people are gonna lean.” And so I just had a really hope that people were gonna like it, you know? So I'm so happy that people don't hate it.
I actually saw on TikTok the other day that you heard it [“abcdefu”] on the radio for the first time. What was that experience like?
That was ridiculous. So I had my brother, my mom, and I, and then my next door neighbor, who was like, around my age. I saw her go through high school, get into college, you know, we've always been cheering each other on and she was in the car with me. And we just sat. And it was this radio station that my mom already has in her car. So I was kind of told roughly around what time it would be playing, kind of. Like I was told 2, and it ended up being played at 2:22, which makes sense. It was like, for this specific station […] it was “New Music at 2:22.” But for some reason I took [the video] at 2. So I was sitting there for 22 minutes listening to commercials with my heart racing.
[…] So we're already in the car for like, 22 minutes. And I was like, “alright, if it doesn't play after this song or the next song… it'll be fine. It'll be okay. And I'll just like, maybe it'll happen one day,” you know? And so when I was playing I just having this face, like, “I don't know if this is gonna happen, but, fuck, I really hope it does! I just got my next door neighbor and my brother to sit in the car for 22 minutes, so I hope that something comes out of this.”
But, it did! And it was so it was so surreal. Like it was one of those moments to hear. Like, I was also thinking about the fact that like, this isn't just my car that this station is playing is playing in. It’s playing in other people's cars, and they're gonna hear my name, and they're gonna hear my song and like, they get to make their own opinions on whether they like it or not. They get to choose whether they relate to the song or not. And I just hope that I can connect people, you know.
That's such a wonderful experience. I loved seeing that. And congratulations.
Thank you.
image courtesy of Luke Rogers
Just going back a little bit, I guess, you talk a lot about in other interviews that you've done about having a lot of inspirations. You talked about Aretha Franklin. And then you've also mentioned like Maggie Rogers, Lorde, Olivia Rodrigo, Sasha Sloane; like these are all really awesome, really well established women in the industry. I would love to hear more about your thoughts about gender representation in the music industry and what your experiences as like a young woman in music has been like, and how having these women to look up to you has been, as an artist.
I feel like growing up, especially as a woman, [as] a growing woman in the music industry… I started coming to Nashville when I was 10. So at this point, like, I haven't even gone through puberty yet. And when I was younger […] I would call myself overweight. That's also, like, my own view of myself. My mother would say I was “just the perfect size.” My mom has to say that. she has always been a really great acceptor of like, who I was as a person and supporting who I want to be and who I want to turn into. And she's been the most amazing role model in my life.
And I'm very lucky to have her because, growing up in Nashville, especially. I dabbled a bit in the country music scene and I feel like, there's still a lot of issues with body images, even just in the pop music industry, overall. I think there's been amazing artists, even specifically Lizzo that have come up to kind of break a standard. But I still think that, especially when it comes to the business side of music, there can still be a standard and even like a cookie cutter of what I feel like women think that they need to be and look like.
[…] I love country music, I think it’s something great. My heart specifically doesn't feel called to do country music. But being in Nashville, doing what I do, I meet a lot of women, a lot of people in town that just do country music. But even when I was doing it, I was in meetings—not with particularly, in any means, big people. But you got to start at the bottom to kind of get to the top, especially, I feel like, in Nashville. And I was told to lose weight as a 10 year old. I was told to like, look at my weight and look at my skin and make sure that it's clear, because if I'm not skinny and pretty on stage, nobody's gonna listen to what I need to say. And I can't say anything too offensive, I can be hurt, but I can't be mad […]. So just be the happy woman that doesn't say anything too out there, you know? And I even think that was one thing that made me even want to push more towards pop because I felt like I had more freedom.
But even then, when I was growing up, I felt like people made you feel like you needed to take your clothes off to do pop music. Like when that's not true at all. And even people looking at a woman showing her body in the way that they need to. It's like, “oh, she just feels a need to like, take her clothes off to do this type of music,” when it's like, no, she's just expressing herself and showing her body in the way that she wants. And I do feel like there is, especially for younger women in pop music, there can be an other third party that makes people feel the need to, like, sexualize themselves. And there's times where I have come into that. And I think it is the fine line of like, there's a lot of women who express themselves in the way that they want to.
I do the same thing! There's even times where they're like, “okay, maybe I shouldn't be wearing, like, a mesh t shirt with my bra off.” [laughs] Just because I gotta wait till I'm at least 18. I guess I shouldn't show my bare tits on stage. But even then, that is just like an expression of the way that I'm choosing to show myself. But I think there's definitely a thing that you have to think of as a woman as the way that you are choosing to express yourself and the way that people are going to perceive that. And that is a choice you have to make as a woman. Like “okay, people might look at me and think I'm a slut, or a whore.” And that's just unfortunate that that's the way the world works. It shouldn't. And people need to talk about it to talk about the change, but I do those things, in spite of the fact that people might think that.
Then there's going to be other people who will look at the same outcome to be like, “yes! I love that outfit! She's just like, being a badass and expressing her body, you know?” Yeah. And so I feel like those are difficulties, especially as a woman that you have to think about […] that a man wouldn't necessarily have to think about.
I can see men literally shirtless on stage and dancing. And everyone's like, “oh, my God, that's so great.” But then if a woman were to […] wear a bikini top on stage, people will be like, “look at her. She's just trying to like do promo for her music.” And there might be somebody [behind it], unfortunately. […] There can be a possibility of somebody making her feel the need, that she needs to do that. Or it could be just her wanting to do that, you know? That's just my mini rant.
There's a lot of pressure put on women in the industry to behave a certain way and a lot of extra scrutiny.
Yeah, and then I also think, due to that pressure, at times, women can also just say “fuck it” and choose to express themselves at times to even an extreme to prove a point. I know I do that for sure. Just to be like, oh, you know, he made me feel the need to do this. No, I'm going to do it the way that I want to do it. And I might even take it to an extreme just because you told me to do this in a specific way, you know?
And I mean, I even think, even with “abc,” that is not a polite song in any way. [laughs] I feel like there can definitely be a pressure towards women, like [a concern that] you're going to be unlikable if you're just like, telling somebody to fuck off. Even with “abc,” yes, I will say that song has been inspired by like an ex relationship that I had. But that also doesn't mean that that song is particularly about a boy either. That song is very much, like, a gender neutral song. That song can be about your ex best friend who pissed you off. As a listener, you can attach any experience you want on it, other than “ugh, she just writes about boys,” you know?
Yeah, a great point. Especially with so many women getting backlash for talking about relationships.
Or “all they talk about” or “all they focus on […] all their success is piggybacking on shitty men.” You know what? fuck it. Hell yeah. That’s great. Why you got to demean that?
That’s incredible. Thank you so much for sharing all those thoughts. As you mentioned before, you write all your own music. I know there's a number of producers you've worked with both on like this track [“abcdefu”] and other tracks. What's your process like for [collaborating]? And what kind of collaborations are you looking forward to doing?
A lot of it for me is, when you work with a producer, you also have to take into account their style and the way that they like to work, because a lot of the time you're going in to their house. Like most the time, especially the sessions that I particularly have done, especially in the past, like two years, solidly, a lot of the times I go to their house. So then I'm already, like, in their studio, and there's different ways that people like to work, like, sometimes I come in with an idea where I'm like, “yo, I was writing the song, and I thought it'd be cool, I already kind of have a vision for it,” build the tracks from scratch. We kind of start writing the song getting the bones together while the track has been made. And then there's times where producers are like, “yo, I have these tracks, if you want to see if there's any ideas of fit to them.” So they kind of already like, made the bones and it's your job as the writer and the artists to kind of attach something to that.
Or you can even say like, “I really like this first section, but the chorus is a little too, um... I want the drums a little bit different like this.” And then you can kind of at least take the bones of what the producer already did. And you can go to one producer, they already have a track, you write a song to it, but then the next week you're writing with them, you can bring in the idea and they build it from scratch. You know, some producers love being immersed into the writing experience. And sometimes they're like “you write, I'm going to make the track,” you know? And you never really know once until you're kind of like in the room with the producer, kind of getting their vibe. And producer can be like a super talkative guy, you talk for four hours before even writing. Or it can be [that] they're not super talkative, so you kind of just kind of get to writing a song super quickly.
But honestly, I just love meeting new people [and] making music with them. I really love the art of collaboration. People can even put […] emotions and feelings and life experiences into their songs that they might not want to always be the face of. There's some people who want to put their own soul and heart into music without having to be the one to like, sing it on a stage every night. And, you know, it's nice to also like be able to let other people put their own experiences, and you put your own and you make this like song that you wouldn't have been able to make without the other people being there putting their own art and taste in music into. So I think that also is a really beautiful thing seeing what you can make with people and their brains. It's a lot of fun.
A lot of people ask “what's next” […] but I guess kind of on a general side of things, what are you looking forward to doing or trying musically in 2022? What are you kind of seeing as your trajectory going forward, especially after this tour?
Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing I'm really excited about is … specifically for me, if I get really mad at somebody, like truly pissed off that hold the grudge, that's because I had the complete opposite feelings for them at some point. Like I loved them so much, still they could piss me off that much. You know, the person who wrote “abc” about, I loved that person very much. Like they were one of my best friends. And they made me feel the complete opposite of those emotions. At one point, I wanted to like… I wouldn't… I didn't particularly want to marry them, but I wanted them to be in my life forever. Like I loved that person. But because I loved them, they could really pissed me off and really make me mad, and hurt and disappointed, you know? So I think I'm really excited to talk about the other extremes of emotion that I was made to feel to to write “abc.”
I'm going to write, I'm going to release like a love song, possibly, about kind of the intensity of one emotion [that can] kind of lead to the other. And I also, I think, in getting mad, too, you start with getting sad, or if you start getting mad, you eventually get sad, too, you know? Showing the growth of those emotions and the way that I personally feel them and how that one thing kind of leads into another.
And I'm also excited to not always write about emotions involving somebody else; it's my own patterns and things that I've done, where I don't always talk about myself in the best light. One particular [unreleased] song I'm thinking about—my goal is to kind of come out with a body of work. [There’s] one song particularly where it's not about anybody else except for me. And it's not talking about how I did things particularly right, you know? I fucked up in a situation, I wasn't necessarily the good guy in it, and that, I think, also talking about the fact that like, you can fuck up like I have [is important]. I have ruined friendships by not being the best person and I never want to forget myself not being the best person in this situation. So I can move on, and not repeat the past mistakes that I made. I would not be the person I am without making those mistakes. I just need to move forward and make sure that I don't make those anymore, you know? So just feeling all the emotions and all the things never shutting up about it.
GAYLE will be in Allston this Monday supporting Winnetka Bowling League at Brighton Music Hall. You can find more information about GAYLE here.
